Are you a feminist?

What is your definition of a feminist?

You tell me. Whatever you think a feminist is.

I support feminism which is the belief in social, economic, and political equality of all sexes (definition by Britannica)

If that means I’m a feminist, I guess then I am

Ok. Presumably, to meet that definition, men and women need to have equal rights?

Yes

And all other sexes

👎

What are some rights men have that women do not?

👎

What’s the issue?

What are some rights men have that women do not?

It is not a simple question although I feel like you want it to be answered a simplistic way to either provoke me or argue against my examples

There are laws and they are supposedly applied equality to any genders, races, and age groups and so on

However in reality, they are always equality applied. And some laws are simply flawed

So back to your question, on the surface, the existence of rights might be equal for both genders. However, how the right was exercised by people are not always equal because of the individual or systemic bias

However in reality, they are always equality applied. And some laws are simply flawed

Do you mean not always equally applied?

Correct. I missed it

Is equal pay a right that exists in theory but isn’t equally enforced, leading to pay differences between men and women for the same jobs?

That can be an example. I have a feeling that you might have some data or argument against that though

Do you like Jordan B Peterson and what he has to say?

I don’t know him well enough to say but some of the things he’s said were good. He’s also religious tho and I dislike that.

That can be an example. I have a feeling that you might have some data or argument against that though

Given a choice between a high-status social-media-influencer job without pay, and a $100,000 job working in the sewers, which job do you think most women would take?

What’s the issue?

There are only two sexes (you’re confusing sex and gender).

Ah you’re right

That can be an example. I have a feeling that you might have some data or argument against that though

Given a choice between a high-status social-media-influencer job without pay, and a $100,000 job working in the sewers, which job do you think most women would take?

Most likely women. Most likely young women

Doesn’t that explain the pay gap?

I’d be very curious to see who’s paying these young women

And means it’s voluntary and that women care less about pay and more about status

Demographic of payers

I think this pay gap discussion needs to be examined under various contexts. The relation between payee and payers (there’s power dynamic). And time/history

Social media is relatively a very new thing in the history not along making money off from it

*not alone

I think you mean ‘let alone’

Haha yeah

My vocabulary doesn’t always keep up with my thoughts!

Do sewer owners have power over women?

How’s that related?

I don’t see any logical connection in the question

You brought up power dynamics

So I asked a question about power dynamics.

Ah. I mean within the payer-payee relationship

Yes

Sewer owners would be the payers

Do you think a male sewer owner pays more to the male employee vs. female employee?

Which

do you think

No women will take the job so it’s a non-question

Apparently about 4.5% sewage disposal worker is female

So your response is false

Oh okay

Do they actually work in the sewers or do they they office jobs related to sewage?

[shares screenshots of stats: 4.5% of sewage-disposal workers are female and they make 91% of what their male counterparts make ($42,207 vs. $46.461)]

It seems that it’s a legit sewage disposal work

Ok. Are you familiar with the small-n problem?

I’m not. Tell me

It’s an artifact in statistics where a small number explains statistical anomalies and outliers. The small sample is responsible for the outcome, not any meaningful facts underlying the data.

Eg, maybe 50% of the male population of Luxembourg likes Lamborghinis, but that doesn’t really tell you anything because Luxembourg’s population is so small to begin with.

Better to look in a bigger country like Germany to correct for that error.

I see

Ok. That’s exactly what I did

I looked biz consultant by gender ratio

41.6%are women and 58.4 are men. Women still get paid 96% of what men get paid

I just looked at another example.

A profession dominated by women

Nurse practitioner

86.9% women and 13.1 % men

In 2021, women earned 94% of what men earned

Do those statistics account for rank and qualification?

And anything else that might account for the difference

Also 94% is really close btw

Has gotten really close

Thanks to the awareness and feminism movement

I do understand why some men are angry with feminism movement

There’s always fringe on any movement and any group

Honestly I don’t know whole alot about feminism nor has in depth knowledge. But as a women, i believe there’s a still room to improve women’s status globally. I do think the women’s status in the US and the western country has gotten much better

Do those statistics account for rank and qualification?

?

Tell me what you’re trying to say with that question

Nothing yet, I’m just looking for a yes or no

If yes, maybe the statistics are meaningful. If no, they don’t really account for anything.

And the difference can explained in terms other than some alleged oppression of women

It doesn’t have the details but I think even with details there could be a valid argument

Do you think the pay gap doesn’t exist?

I don’t know but I remain unconvinced that if it does it’s because of prejudice against women.

It doesn’t have the details but I think even with details there could be a valid argument

I think you mean ‘even without details’

With details

:)

Oh like, if details said women’s ranks are generally lower?

Yeah. Even if that’s the case

Reminds me of a before and after photo of Twitter employees (before Elon musk took over vs after). Before photo had lots more women in it, after photo had only one IIRC.

Seems to me there are two different ways to explain the difference, right?

What does it tell you?

Well first, Musk demanded a much tougher work ethic, wanted ppl who don’t contribute much to leave. That’s uncontroversial. The difference lies in how people interpret the impact on female employees.

Did he create some toxic work environment for females that pushed them out, as feminists were no doubt quick to conclude?

Or did females quit disproportionately because they weren’t willing to put in the work he demanded?

The photo alone doesn’t tells, but I’d lean with the second option, given what we’ve established about women doing hard jobs (like sewers).

*doesn’t tell us

They are programmers in the photos, right?

Idk

I don’t know either. I think there are several versions

If you want to claim that women don’t work hard or avoid hard jobs, I’d argue against that.

Then why’d you answer they’d rather take high-status jobs for free than harder jobs for high pay?

Who doesn’t????

I wouldn’t

Regardless of gender!

You might be an exception but most would do

Oh wait. I might have misunderstood

No lots of men wouldn’t (several men were asked on YouTube and they all said they’d take the sewer job and all women said they’d take the job without pay)

You mean high paying vs. high status?

High-paying low-status job vs low-paying high-status job

Oh so you are saying women value status more than money?

Def

Are you arguing that that’s why women get paid less than men?

On the whole yea

More important for women to fit in, fulfill social functions and roles

More important for men to make money and provide, including for women

Less important (but not unimportant) for men to fit in and play status games.

Hmm…

I’m not so sure

Men play a lot more politics

I do agree in some way…social acceptance is more important for women and men to make to provide. These are both nature and nurtured tendency I believe

for women and men to make to provide

I don’t understand this part.

Do you mean ‘for women than men’?

Social acceptance tend to be important for women. And providing for family is important to men

Although, I might argue that it might have been more like for men traditionally as a sole breadwinner in the house. But I don’t think it’s not so much like that

Anyone who is responsible to take care of family would feel the needs to do that. Like single mothers or a household with a woman being the breadwinner

Yea there are def exceptions

Then again fitting in and having a career aren’t mutually exclusive

In a typical relationship, do you think it’s more important to the women that the guy get along with her friends and family and go to social functions with her, or is it more important to the guy that she get along with his friends and family and go to social functions with him?

I think it’s equally important to both as long as they both consider “getting along with friends and family, and going to social functions” to be important

Don’t you?

No, more important to the woman

It might depend on the culture and the society.

Let’s say if it’s more important to women, what does it tell you?

This:

More important for women to fit in, fulfill social functions and roles

Women don’t need to pursue a career or make money to attract men.

That’s not really true

Men who wants an equal partner would want someone who can support themselves

However, many men values different things from women (and I’m not saying this is wrong)

When given a choice between a hot babe with an average to no income or status vs an average to ugly woman with high income or status, who would most men find more attractive?

Obviously hot babe. I mean you said “hot” already so the answer was already given 😆

Attractive doesn’t just refer to looks.

So, the primary currency for attraction that women use is looks. Whereas the primary currency men use isn’t looks (though they help).

Many women will be happy to sleep with an ugly billionaire.

Men generally don’t care to sleep with ugly female billionaires.

Yeah. That’s rather unfortunate no? 🥲

Women are constantly objectified by their looks

No wonder why women spend so much money on makeups and beauty related atuff

Stuff

Well yes but I don’t buy that women dislike being hot. Women can easily opt out of being objectified by not embellishing their appearance.

In reality they benefit a lot from being beautiful.

That is true. It’s both curse and blessing

But the general positive impact of the physical attractive goes for both genders…Although it’s higher for women as men care more about women’s physical appearance

Yes and again, women will happily look past a guy being ugly if he’s high status.

Oh wait, I disagree with women can opt out of being objectified

Ok why

Yes and again, women will happily look past a guy being ugly if he’s high status.

I won’t! 😆

Kidding

Ok why

Because objectification has little to do someone did embellishment or not

*with

Will a more beautiful looking woman not be objectified more than a less beautiful looking woman?

Do you think less beautiful women is more humanized because she is uglier??

Less objectified yea

This whole notion of valuing someone solely based on their physical appearance is the very definition of objectification

Why is it wrong for a man to objectify a woman for her appearance when most ppl see no issue with women objectifying men for their money?

That’s a good question and I’m thinking about this

I don’t think objectifying anyone is right

That being said, historically men had more power over women and women were allowed to participant in workforce or climb up the ladder for the better paycheck.

I think you mean ‘weren’t’

Right. Auto correction.

So women relied on men to survive

Money means an ability to sustain life and ability to take care of themselves and others

Now women has more economic power the needs for men to provide is less than before

Have

The society is changing and to me this gender issue is the transitional pain

Interesting

If objectification is always wrong in both directions, and women enjoy greater economic equality nowadays, why are men shamed for objectifying women’s beauty way more than women are shamed for objectifying men’s finances?

I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.

Also, the history of women having economic power (not equality) is very very very very brief compare to the duration of men having the power. You happen to live in the time the shift is happening and it feels unfair to you.

I guess it’s not really a shift. More like balancing

Also, the history of women having economic power (not equality) is very very very very brief compare to the duration of men having the power. You happen to live in the time the shift is happening and it feels unfair to you.

When did I say it feels unfair to me?

That was the sentiment that came across. If not, ok

I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.

Isn’t the fact that many women are born with the beauty men value, whereas men have to put in effort to be valued by women, a privilege women generally have over men?

Oh and I didn’t mean you felt unfair about women having economic power

Isn’t the fact that many women are born with the beauty men value, whereas men have to put in effort to be valued by women, a privilege women generally have over men?

I don’t know if that’s the fact

You said it yourself

Here:

I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.

I don’t think it’s privilege. At least that’s what I felt (not because I thought I was attractive or any but just regarding the objectification based on the physical appearance in general)

My dad used to tell me. Women are like flowers. Once a season is gone no one will like

Useless

Yea, don’t beautiful women enjoy benefits ugly women do not?

They can open doors with just a smile as that old Eagles song goes (paraphrasing)

I never wanted to be judged by my look at work and thought it actually hinder how others judge my ability to do my work

I do agree when you’re beautiful world is much friendly to you

I that’s when you’re beautiful

Right, so isn’t that a privilege?

But when you’re not attractive the opposite might be the case

Why is that privilege??

This is why:

I do agree when you’re beautiful world is much friendly to you

It’s an unearned benefit

Yes. Agree that Being beautiful is some kind of privilege. But objectification is not

Like being a while male is a privilege

White

I didn’t say objectification is a privilege

Being beautiful is a privilege

That I agree

Esp as a girl

Ok

But the issue is that physical beauty is ephemeral

So, if beauty is a privilege many women have over men, does objectification for their beauty really hurt them that much?

Like I said, objectification is not about being beautiful

Objectifying a person solely based on their physical appearance is wrong

Won’t you agree?

Like I said, objectification is not about being beautiful

I’ve reviewed our chat and I don’t think you’ve said that.

Won’t you agree?

Maybe

Like I said, objectification is not about being beautiful

I’ve reviewed our chat and I don’t think you’ve said that.

I did somewhere. If not, I’m saying it now

I think it’s totally fine if you like someone for their physical appearance. But if you value someone solely based on their physical appearance, that’s not good.

Same goes to any person who values someone solely based on their finance

Or how much money they have

I guess it depends. If you’re a recruiter for models, then only looking at beauty, or at least considering it the most important thing, doesn’t seem wrong.

I think that example doesn’t really align with what we are arguing about

I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.

What are some of the dangers you’re thinking of here?

Or debating about

One of the consequences of that is women would be considered to be a possession of men or can be possessed

This kind of thinking can cause sexual or physical violence

True

What are some dangers of the objectification of men?

Good question.

With money or beauty?

Men are typically objectified for money, not beauty. So money.

Not being able to attract spouse or having negative financial impact by women going after the money

Yes

Maybe some women beat men if he doesn’t bring enough money 😅 but that might be a rare case

I don’t think the smiley is appropriate but yea women’s power over men is typically not physical.

AFAIK divorce courts usually favor women and the man is financially on the hook.

It was not smiley

Relatively easy for a woman to take a man for all he’s got once they’re married and they don’t have a prenup, especially if kids are part of the equation.

AFAIK divorce courts usually favor women and the man is financially on the hook.

That is true and I’ve heard that seems to be rather unfair.

I feel the current law is based on rather traditional family setting and not adequately adapting to the changing family landscape

Speaking of which, are you aware of any rights women have that men do not?

We are going back to the very beginning

Do you mind?

Abortion right

Which some have and some don’t

I can’t think of anything else

I’m curious what’s your general argument in this whole conversation?

Men don’t really have any reproductive rights.

🤔 that’s your argument?

No I was responding to this:

I can’t think of anything else

I don’t have a general argument, just curious to learn more about male/female dynamics.

Ah ok

What’s your friends’ gender ratio?

Close friends 50/50

Wider circle is more male

👍got it

This was an interesting and illuminating conversation.

It was enjoyable to me as well. Thanks for that

Although most of things you mentioned were about general men vs. women and devoid of your personal examples

Not that it’s bad. I’m just pointing that out

I’m interested in general truths, most of which aren’t about me.

I think others may be interested in reading our exchange. OK for me to share it?

Yeah. It’s ok.