Dennis Hackethal’s Blog
My blog about philosophy, coding, and anything else that interests me.
Discussion about ‘Why do cats knead?’
A video on Instagram claims that adult cats knead "when they feel content, safe, or relaxed." I disagree and commented accordingly. Here's a mirror of the replies I got.
I tried my best to respond to as many of them as possible. I won't be able to get anywhere near a conclusion for this discussion as there are too many participants and it would require going into too much subject matter. But I'm sharing the discussion here because I think the replies are indicative of how close minded many people are, especially when it comes to animal sentience (or lack thereof), and how much abuse they'll hurl at you for thinking differently. I've written a bit about that before.
My first comment did receive hundreds of likes, but exactly zero people in the replies went 'hey, this is interesting, I disagree but maybe I can learn something new'. RIP.
All of these comments were publicly made on Instagram, not here. This is just a mirror. Timestamps aren't accurate but they are in the original, sequential order. Comments are true to the originals, typos and all, except blockquotes are added for context.
noold3610 ·
in the case that animals do have emotions, isn't it bet to be safe than sorry and show animals a little respect? I am online after all and I don't know your life so I just made an assumption that you show disdain towards animals because this video caused you significant enough anger to want to act on it.
Dennis ·
in the case that animals do have emotions, isn't it bet to be safe than sorry and show animals a little respect? I am online after all and I don't know your life so I just made an assumption that you show disdain towards animals because this video caused you significant enough anger to want to act on it.
I'm neither angry nor do I have disdain for animals. What you're proposing is a modern version of Pascal's wager and it's wrong for the same reasons
my1girlfranturnedintothemoon ·
clearly u haven't done enough research 💀 have you seen any animals in the wild at all? when an elephants baby is killed the mother will literally starve itself or even carry its dead child in its trunk for weeks. yes animals don't have as complex emotions as we have they are more naturalistic and have different thinking patterns but that doesn't make them heartless or even emotionless. have you ever seen a mother gorilla or orangutan loose a baby? bc they do the same thing and can become depressed and resist feeding, drinking and even sleeping and then die. idk what "research" your doing but stop reading articles and watch real videos of these animals that show proof of this stuff.
microwaveable_meat ·
I've been working in veterinary medicine for a decade, animals absolutely have feelings, they have very big feelings. They are sentient beings like us, and have even more complex emotions than we as humans do. For example, I'm sure animals have exhibit weary/fearful behavior around you versus someone who actually likes animals.
Dennis ·
I've been working in veterinary medicine for a decade, animals absolutely have feelings, they have very big feelings. They are sentient beings like us, and have even more complex emotions than we as humans do. For example, I'm sure animals have exhibit weary/fearful behavior around you versus someone who actually likes animals.
I don't dislike animals. I like cats a lot
daddy_vegan69 ·
they're laying into u because u said u have made research about it and still think otherwise. By simply looking at out of place behaviors of animals that was observed by scientists, the answer is clear that animals do have feelings. Thus if u truly has research thoroughly about this matter and still think otherwise, u are narrowminded
Dennis ·
Mammals have a brain developed enough to play and have mental illness, I think it's safe to say they experience emotions.
sentience is a property of software not hardware. As long as the underlying hardware is computationally universal it is capable of being sentient. But my MacBook is just as capable of that even though its hardware is different from my brain's. So hardware alone doesn't tell us much.
s_roveda ·
Mammals have a brain developed enough to play and have mental illness, I think it's safe to say they experience emotions.
sentience is a property of software not hardware. As long as the underlying hardware is computationally universal it is capable of being sentient. But my MacBook is just as capable of that even though its hardware is different from my brain's. So hardware alone doesn't tell us much.
I wasn't talking about sentients. Just emotions
itz_literly_nothing__ ·
animals have the exact same endocrine glands as we do and all endocrine glands have specific purposes and most are responsible for hormone production which alter emotional response. animals DO experience emotion. you're just lacking the experience the knowledge to research deeper in it. your research is you simply looking it up and only looking at the first thing.
itz_literly_nothing__ ·
and what drives dogs to care for us and clearly show and require love and attention? maybe you're right in comparing it to humans but in similarity, animals experience emotion, pain, loss, grief, happiness and more. just cause a person in a comment section that claims they've done research (you btw) doesn't mean we should all believe or trust what you say.
Dennis ·
your clothes are soft. You see how kneading the air doesn’t make sense right? You’re making my point for me
the cat isn't touching my clothes? bro has never owned a cat obviously. they've done it on hardwood and tile before too
I've owned a cat before. Kneading hardwood and tile also doesn't make sense. You're again making my point for me
Dennis ·
and what drives dogs to care for us and clearly show and require love and attention? maybe you're right in comparing it to humans but in similarity, animals experience emotion, pain, loss, grief, happiness and more. just cause a person in a comment section that claims they've done research (you btw) doesn't mean we should all believe or trust what you say.
what drives dogs? Selective breeding. And no, you shouldn't just trust what I say. You should be critical of it. But you should also be critical of the view that animals are sentient. That would be unique (~no one wants to question that)
itz_literly_nothing__ ·
i don’t know where you getting at? “nonhuman and humans” are considered sentient. and selective breeding definitely varies but in all, all dogs and even wolves have shown acceptance and emotional intelligence. whenever i personally am sick or upset my cat displays more attention on me and follows me everywhere to comfort me. you’re making it seem you know what you’re saying but i seriously do not understand your point on this
s_roveda ·
no emotions without sentience
Don't think so, why are you so certain about it?
you think one could experience emotions without being sentient? Experience requires sentience in the first place
I think you could experience emotion at a low level of sentience, maybe even none. I have no reason to think one requires the other. I think we can make a case of some sort of level of sentience for mammals anyway.
Participants
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- my1girlfranturnedintothemoon
- noold3610
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- s_roveda
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What people are saying
sopheannn wrote:
This isn't bad. Like, it still doesn't make sense for cats to 'knead' things that can't be kneaded, but what she suggests may refute my original claim that soft materials trigger kneading because they're reminiscent of a mother's belly.
Or maybe her cat is particularly buggy. In any case, something like my explanation will be true – there's some automatic trigger of kneading that cats execute uncritically, ie like robots.
The reason the original video reached for a humanizing explanation along the lines of cats feeling “safe” or “content” is that the creators don't consider that cats are robots. Uncritically kneading things that can't be kneaded (air, hardwood, tile) is still robotic behavior.
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Her comment that her cat isn't touching her clothes is false, though: she said her cat kneads the air when she picks it up, so her cat is still touching her clothes, or at least her skin, which is also soft (if not with its paws then with other parts of its body).
She thought she disproved my point because the cat kneads the air, ie its paws aren't touching her clothes.
The only point that potentially disproved mine was that the cat 'kneads' hardwood and tiles – assuming it does so when not touching anything soft with any part of its body.
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