Dennis Hackethal’s Blog
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History of post ‘Chat about Male-Female Dynamics’
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@@ -2,7 +2,7 @@ A female friend of mine and I discuss male-female dynamics. Read on if you want to learn about what attracts women and what attracts men, perceived vs. real differences and inequalities such as the pay gap, male and female rights, and more. Neither of us is a native speaker of English. Many of my questions are inspired by a YouTube channel called 'It's Complicated'. <div-class="chat-container">+class="chat-container bg-white px-3 py-1 rounded-lg"> <div class="chat"> <div class="mine messages"> <div class="message last">
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# Chat about Male-Female Dynamics
A female friend of mine and I discuss male-female dynamics. Read on if you want to learn about what attracts women and what attracts men, perceived vs. real differences and inequalities such as the pay gap, male and female rights, and more. Neither of us is a native speaker of English. Many of my questions are inspired by a YouTube channel called 'It's Complicated'.
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Are you a feminist?
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What is your definition of a feminist?
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You tell me. Whatever you think a feminist is.
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I support feminism which is the belief in social, economic, and political equality of all sexes (definition by Britannica)
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If that means I’m a feminist, I guess then I am
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Ok. Presumably, to meet that definition, men and women need to have equal rights?
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Yes
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And all other sexes
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👎
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What are some rights men have that women do not?
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<blockquote>👎</blockquote>
What’s the issue?
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<blockquote>What are some rights men have that women do not?</blockquote>
It is not a simple question although I feel like you want it to be answered a simplistic way to either provoke me or argue against my examples
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There are laws and they are supposedly applied equality to any genders, races, and age groups and so on
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However in reality, they are always equality applied. And some laws are simply flawed
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So back to your question, on the surface, the existence of rights might be equal for both genders. However, how the right was exercised by people are not always equal because of the individual or systemic bias
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<blockquote>However in reality, they are always equality applied. And some laws are simply flawed</blockquote>
Do you mean *not* always equally applied?
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Correct. I missed it
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Is equal pay a right that exists in theory but isn’t equally enforced, leading to pay differences between men and women for the same jobs?
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That can be an example. I have a feeling that you might have some data or argument against that though
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Do you like Jordan B Peterson and what he has to say?
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I don’t know him well enough to say but some of the things he’s said were good. He’s also religious tho and I dislike that.
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<blockquote>That can be an example. I have a feeling that you might have some data or argument against that though</blockquote>
Given a choice between a high-status social-media-influencer job without pay, and a $100,000 job working in the sewers, which job do you think most women would take?
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<blockquote>What’s the issue?</blockquote>
There are only two sexes (you’re confusing sex and gender).
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Ah you’re right
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<blockquote>Given a choice between a high-status social-media-influencer job without pay, and a $100,000 job working in the sewers, which job do you think most women would take?</blockquote>
Most likely women. Most likely young women
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Doesn’t that explain the pay gap?
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I’d be very curious to see who’s paying these young women
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And means it’s voluntary and that women care less about pay and more about status
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Demographic of payers
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I think this pay gap discussion needs to be examined under various contexts. The relation between payee and payers (there’s power dynamic). And time/history
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Social media is relatively a very new thing in the history not along making money off from it
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*not alone
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I think you mean ‘let alone’
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Haha yeah
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My vocabulary doesn’t always keep up with my thoughts!
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Do sewer owners have power over women?
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How’s that related?
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I don’t see any logical connection in the question
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You brought up power dynamics
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So I asked a question about power dynamics.
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Ah. I mean within the payer-payee relationship
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Yes
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Sewer owners would be the payers
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Do you think a male sewer owner pays more to the male employee vs. female employee?
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Which
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do you think
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No women will take the job so it’s a non-question
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Apparently about 4.5% sewage disposal worker is female
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So your response is false
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Oh okay
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Do they actually work in the sewers or do they they office jobs related to sewage?
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[shares screenshots of stats: 4.5% of sewage-disposal workers are female and they make 91% of what their male counterparts make ($42,207 vs. $46.461)]
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It seems that it’s a legit sewage disposal work
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Ok. Are you familiar with the small-n problem?
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I’m not. Tell me
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It’s an artifact in statistics where a small number explains statistical anomalies and outliers. The small sample is responsible for the outcome, not any meaningful facts underlying the data.
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Eg, maybe 50% of the male population of Luxembourg likes Lamborghinis, but that doesn’t really tell you anything because Luxembourg’s population is so small to begin with.
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Better to look in a bigger country like Germany to correct for that error.
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I see
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Ok. That’s exactly what I did
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I looked biz consultant by gender ratio
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41.6%are women and 58.4 are men. Women still get paid 96% of what men get paid
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I just looked at another example.
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A profession dominated by women
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Nurse practitioner
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86.9% women and 13.1 % men
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In 2021, women earned 94% of what men earned
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Do those statistics account for rank and qualification?
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And anything else that might account for the difference
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Also 94% is really close btw
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Has gotten really close
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Thanks to the awareness and feminism movement
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I do understand why some men are angry with feminism movement
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There’s always fringe on any movement and any group
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Honestly I don’t know whole alot about feminism nor has in depth knowledge. But as a women, i believe there’s a still room to improve women’s status globally. I do think the women’s status in the US and the western country has gotten much better
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<blockquote>Do those statistics account for rank and qualification?</blockquote>
?
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Tell me what you’re trying to say with that question
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Nothing yet, I’m just looking for a yes or no
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If yes, maybe the statistics are meaningful. If no, they don’t really account for anything.
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And the difference can explained in terms other than some alleged oppression of women
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It doesn’t have the details but I think even with details there could be a valid argument
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Do you think the pay gap doesn’t exist?
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I don’t know but I remain unconvinced that if it does it’s because of prejudice against women.
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<blockquote>It doesn’t have the details but I think even with details there could be a valid argument </blockquote>
I think you mean ‘even without details’
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With details
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:)
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Oh like, if details said women’s ranks are generally lower?
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Yeah. Even if that’s the case
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Reminds me of a before and after photo of Twitter employees (before Elon musk took over vs after). Before photo had lots more women in it, after photo had only one IIRC.
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Seems to me there are two different ways to explain the difference, right?
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What does it tell you?
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Well first, Musk demanded a much tougher work ethic, wanted ppl who don’t contribute much to leave. That’s uncontroversial. The difference lies in how people interpret the impact on female employees.<br>
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Did he create some toxic work environment for females that pushed them out, as feminists were no doubt quick to conclude?<br>
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Or did females quit disproportionately because they weren’t willing to put in the work he demanded?<br>
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The photo alone doesn’t tells, but I’d lean with the second option, given what we’ve established about women doing hard jobs (like sewers).
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*doesn’t tell us
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They are programmers in the photos, right?
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Idk
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I don’t know either. I think there are several versions
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If you want to claim that women don’t work hard or avoid hard jobs, I’d argue against that.
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Then why’d you answer they’d rather take high-status jobs for free than harder jobs for high pay?
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Who doesn’t????
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I wouldn’t
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Regardless of gender!
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You might be an exception but most would do
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Oh wait. I might have misunderstood
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No lots of men wouldn’t (several men were asked on YouTube and they all said they’d take the sewer job and all women said they’d take the job without pay)
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You mean high paying vs. high status?
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High-paying low-status job vs low-paying high-status job
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Oh so you are saying women value status more than money?
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Def
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Are you arguing that that’s why women get paid less than men?
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On the whole yea
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More important for women to fit in, fulfill social functions and roles
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More important for men to make money and provide, including for women
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Less important (but not unimportant) for men to fit in and play status games.
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Hmm…
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I’m not so sure
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Men play a lot more politics
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I do agree in some way…social acceptance is more important for women and men to make to provide. These are both nature and nurtured tendency I believe
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“for women and men to make to provide” I don’t understand this part.
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Do you mean ‘for women *than* men’?
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Social acceptance tend to be important for women. And providing for family is important to men
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Although, I might argue that it might have been more like for men traditionally as a sole breadwinner in the house. But I don’t think it’s not so much like that
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Anyone who is responsible to take care of family would feel the needs to do that. Like single mothers or a household with a woman being the breadwinner
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Yea there are def exceptions
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Then again fitting in and having a career aren’t mutually exclusive
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In a typical relationship, do you think it’s more important to the women that the guy get along with her friends and family and go to social functions with her, or is it more important to the guy that she get along with his friends and family and go to social functions with him?
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I think it’s equally important to both as long as they both consider “getting along with friends and family, and going to social functions” to be important
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Don’t you?
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No, more important to the woman
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It might depend on the culture and the society.
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Let’s say if it’s more important to women, what does it tell you?
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<blockquote>More important for women to fit in, fulfill social functions and roles</blockquote>
This
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Women don’t need to pursue a career or make money to attract men.
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That’s not really true
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Men who wants an equal partner would want someone who can support themselves
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However, many men values different things from women (and I’m not saying this is wrong)
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When given a choice between a hot babe with an average to no income or status vs an average to ugly woman with high income or status, who would most men find more attractive?
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Obviously hot babe. I mean you said “hot” already so the answer was already given 😆
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Attractive doesn’t just refer to looks.
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So, the primary currency for attraction that women use is looks. Whereas the primary currency men use isn’t looks (though they help).
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Many women will be happy to sleep with an ugly billionaire.
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Men generally don’t care to sleep with ugly female billionaires.
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Yeah. That’s rather unfortunate no? 🥲
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Women are constantly objectified by their looks
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No wonder why women spend so much money on makeups and beauty related atuff
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Stuff
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Well yes but I don’t buy that women dislike being hot. Women can easily opt out of being objectified by not <a href="/posts/mind-reading#comment-538">embellishing their appearance</a>.
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In reality they benefit a lot from being beautiful.
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That is true. It’s both curse and blessing
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But the general positive impact of the physical attractive goes for both genders…Although it’s higher for women as men care more about women’s physical appearance
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Yes and again, women will happily look past a guy being ugly if he’s high status.
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Oh wait, I disagree with women can opt out of being objectified
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Ok why
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<blockquote>Yes and again, women will happily look past a guy being ugly if he’s high status.</blockquote>
I won’t! 😆
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Kidding
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<blockquote>Ok why</blockquote>
Because objectification has little to do someone did embellishment or not
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*with
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Will a more beautiful looking woman not be objectified more than a less beautiful looking woman?
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Do you think less beautiful women is more humanized because she is uglier??
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Less objectified yea
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This whole notion of valuing someone solely based on their physical appearance is the very definition of objectification
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Why is it wrong for a man to objectify a woman for her appearance when most ppl see no issue with women objectifying men for their money?
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That’s a good question and I’m thinking about this
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I don’t think objectifying anyone is right
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That being said, historically men had more power over women and women were allowed to participant in workforce or climb up the ladder for the better paycheck.
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I think you mean ‘weren’t’
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Right. Auto correction.<br>
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So women relied on men to survive
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Money means an ability to sustain life and ability to take care of themselves and others
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Now women has more economic power the needs for men to provide is less than before
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Have
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The society is changing and to me this gender issue is the transitional pain
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Interesting
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If objectification is always wrong in both directions, and women enjoy greater economic equality nowadays, why are men shamed for objectifying women’s beauty way more than women are shamed for objectifying men’s finances?
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I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.
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Also, the history of women having economic power (not equality) is very very very very brief compare to the duration of men having the power. You happen to live in the time the shift is happening and it feels unfair to you.
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I guess it’s not really a shift. More like balancing
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<blockquote>Also, the history of women having economic power (not equality) is very very very very brief compare to the duration of men having the power. You happen to live in the time the shift is happening and it feels unfair to you.</blockquote>
When did I say it feels unfair to me?
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That was the sentiment that came across. If not, ok
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<blockquote>I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.</blockquote>
Isn’t the fact that many women are born with the beauty men value, whereas men have to put in effort to be valued by women, a privilege women generally have over men?
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Oh and I didn’t mean you felt unfair about women having economic power
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<blockquote>Isn’t the fact that many women are born with the beauty men value, whereas men have to put in effort to be valued by women, a privilege women generally have over men?</blockquote>
I don’t know if that’s the fact
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You said it yourself
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<blockquote>I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort. </blockquote>
Here
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I don’t think it’s privilege. At least that’s what I felt (not because I thought I was attractive or any but just regarding the objectification based on the physical appearance in general)
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My dad used to tell me. Women are like flowers. Once a season is gone no one will like
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Useless
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Yea, don’t beautiful women enjoy benefits ugly women do not?
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They can open doors with just a smile as that old Eagles song goes (paraphrasing)
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I never wanted to be judged by my look at work and thought it actually hinder how others judge my ability to do my work
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I do agree when you’re beautiful world is much friendly to you
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I that’s when you’re beautiful
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<div class="mine messages">
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Right, so isn’t that a privilege?
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<div class="yours messages">
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But when you’re not attractive the opposite might be the case
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Why is that privilege??
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<div class="mine messages">
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<blockquote>I do agree when you’re beautiful world is much friendly to you</blockquote>
This is why
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It’s an unearned benefit
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<div class="yours messages">
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Yes. Agree that Being beautiful is some kind of privilege. But objectification is not
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Like being a while male is a privilege
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White
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<div class="mine messages">
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I didn’t say objectification is a privilege
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Being beautiful is a privilege
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<div class="yours messages">
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That I agree
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<div class="mine messages">
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Esp as a girl
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Ok
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<div class="yours messages">
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But the issue is that physical beauty is ephemeral
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<div class="mine messages">
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So, if beauty is a privilege many women have over men, does objectification for their beauty really hurt them that much?
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<div class="yours messages">
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Like I said, objectification is not about being beautiful
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Objectifying a person solely based on their physical appearance is wrong
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Won’t you agree?
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<div class="mine messages">
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<blockquote>Like I said, objectification is not about being beautiful</blockquote>
I’ve reviewed our chat and I don’t think you’ve said that.
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<blockquote>Won’t you agree? </blockquote>
Maybe
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<div class="yours messages">
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<blockquote>I’ve reviewed our chat and I don’t think you’ve said that.</blockquote>
I did somewhere. If not, I’m saying it now
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I think it’s totally fine if you like someone for their physical appearance. But if you value someone solely based on their physical appearance, that’s not good.
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Same goes to any person who values someone solely based on their finance
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Or how much money they have
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<div class="mine messages">
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I guess it depends. If you’re a recruiter for models, then only looking at beauty, or at least considering it the most important thing, doesn’t seem wrong.
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<div class="yours messages">
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I think that example doesn’t really align with what we are arguing about
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<div class="mine messages">
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<blockquote>I think men objectifying women has more dangerous consequences than women objectifying men for money. And one is based on what you’re born with and the other one relies on one’s ability and the effort.</blockquote>
What are some of the dangers you’re thinking of here?
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<div class="yours messages">
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Or debating about
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One of the consequences of that is women would be considered to be a possession of men or can be possessed
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This kind of thinking can cause sexual or physical violence
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<div class="mine messages">
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True
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What are some dangers of the objectification of men?
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<div class="yours messages">
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Good question.
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With money or beauty?
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<div class="mine messages">
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Men are typically objectified for money, not beauty. So money.
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<div class="yours messages">
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Not being able to attract spouse or having negative financial impact by women going after the money
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<div class="mine messages">
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Yes
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<div class="yours messages">
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Maybe some women beat men if he doesn’t bring enough money 😅 but that might be a rare case
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<div class="mine messages">
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I don’t think the smiley is appropriate but yea women’s power over men is typically not physical.
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AFAIK divorce courts usually favor women and the man is financially on the hook.
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<div class="yours messages">
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It was not smiley
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<div class="mine messages">
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Relatively easy for a woman to take a man for all he’s got once they’re married and they don’t have a prenup, especially if kids are part of the equation.
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<div class="yours messages">
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<blockquote>AFAIK divorce courts usually favor women and the man is financially on the hook.</blockquote>
That is true and I’ve heard that seems to be rather unfair.
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I feel the current law is based on rather traditional family setting and not adequately adapting to the changing family landscape
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<div class="mine messages">
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Speaking of which, are you aware of any rights women have that men do not?
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<div class="yours messages">
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We are going back to the very beginning
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<div class="mine messages">
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Do you mind?
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<div class="yours messages">
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Abortion right
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Which some have and some don’t
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I can’t think of anything else
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I’m curious what’s your general argument in this whole conversation?
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<div class="mine messages">
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<a href="/posts/men-have-no-reproductive-rights">Men don’t really have any reproductive rights.</a>
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<div class="yours messages">
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🤔 that’s your argument?
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<div class="mine messages">
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<blockquote>I can’t think of anything else</blockquote>
No I was responding to this
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I don’t have a general argument, just curious to learn more about male/female dynamics.
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<div class="yours messages">
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Ah ok
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What’s your friends’ gender ratio?
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<div class="mine messages">
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Close friends 50/50
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Wider circle is more male
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<div class="yours messages">
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👍got it
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<div class="mine messages">
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This was an interesting and illuminating conversation.
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<div class="yours messages">
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It was enjoyable to me as well. Thanks for that
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Although most of things you mentioned were about general men vs. women and devoid of your personal examples
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Not that it’s bad. I’m just pointing that out
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<div class="mine messages">
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I’m interested in general truths, most of which aren’t about me.
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I think others may be interested in reading our exchange. OK for me to share it?
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<div class="yours messages">
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Yeah. It’s ok.
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