Dennis Hackethal’s Blog
My blog about philosophy, coding, and anything else that interests me.
Tweets
An archive of my tweets and retweets through . They may be formatted slightly differently than on Twitter. API access has since gotten prohibitively expensive – I don't know whether or when I'll be able to update this archive.
But in case I will, you can subscribe via RSS – without a Twitter account. Rationale
Also, if you think that having nervous systems and families and sex and what not are all indicative of consciousness then you seem to be drawing a line for animals that do not have those things. Like unicellular organisms that reproduce through division.
Having read Deutsch you'll know that due to computational universality the hardware differences do not matter. We know that we could build a universal computer out of chewing gum and tooth picks and program it to be conscious (if we knew how).
[...] families, predators, or a need to find food, safety, or sexual partners.
Why would those things indicate consciousness? Video-game characters can have all those things and they're not conscious.
Cameras are not eyes.
Right, but eyes are cameras.
Robots do not have brains [...]
They do, their computers are their brains.
[...] nervous systems [...]
They have wires going to their computers that process signals just like nervous systems.
[...] emotions [...]
Exactly!
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
I'm guessing my arguments frustrate you because I have a radically different view that you don't like and I'm not willing to back down through intimidation as many have tried. This again frustrates you and you're confusing that with me being 'dishonest' or 'passive aggressive'.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
For example, I never accused you of being dishonest (which is pretty talk for calling someone a liar), or insane, or passive aggressive. But you accused me those things. So it's reasonable to say I'm being more courteous than you.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
No, and I agree that people should not personally identify with their arguments or be taken aback when they're refuted. But that doesn't mean it's okay to insult ppl, nor does it cover the extent of how aggressive you've been toward me, nor have you refuted my arguments.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Another accusation. And it's false (again): I don't believe I've said or done anything you accuse me of, including being disingenuous, dishonest, or passive aggressive.
So you don't want to move on from this, I take it?
300 police using the threat of defensive force [...]
They're using aggressive force. That there's a law doesn't make it defensive. These are moral considerations, not just legal ones. (And it's going to be 800 soon apparently. :()
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
We can move on from this and just focus on the topic of animal sentience, I just ask that you extend the same courtesy as I to you by staying on an objective and sober level.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Here your emoji signifies you think I'm stupid twitter.com/AstralKing7/st…
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
You're sneaky about it so you have plausible deniability. For example, in this tweet, you imply that I'm self-centered: twitter.com/AstralKing7/st… Same in this tweet twitter.com/AstralKing7/st… but with greater deniability. Here twitter.com/AstralKing7/st… you're implying that I'm insane.
Apprehending a murder, for example, might require physical violence.
Absolutely, which is why I specified aggressive force. Apprehending a murder is an example of defensive force.
Again, robots use cameras as eyes that produce much the same evidence and you've agreed that robots aren't conscious. So the fact that dogs have eyes which they use to navigate the world cannot mean they're conscious.
What is the purpose of the nerve signals produced by eyes?
To provide evidence which helps to navigate the world. That navigation can be automated, for example using path-finding algorithms, as Elliot Temple once pointed out to me, no consciousness required.
Animal eyes produce a visual awareness [...]
Again, no, not in dogs or in humans.
Your genes answer applies to you and me as much as it applies to dogs.
Sort of. The blog post you don't want to read explains why it's a bit different for people.
Dogs are not robots [...]
Evidence?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
You even say here twitter.com/AstralKing7/st… that "[s]elf-awareness is not required for consciousness" and arguably body awareness is part of self-awareness so I'm not sure why you bring it up here.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
The fact is, my dog is skilled at doing this thing that requires both intent and body awareness.
Nothing your dog does requires intent or body awareness (not in the conscious, sentient sense). As evidence consider that robots could be programmed to do everything your dog does.
And the legal threat of that force isn't violence (imo).
Right, I think that's where we disagree. Though, to be clear, I wasn't talking just about the threat of force, but also applied (aggressive) force.
I could argue it's not [...]
Doubtful.
Your wanting to update Popper's criteria with something (we both agree) govt should not do.
I thought you disagreed. You seemed to defend governments' violent treatment of citizens.
But that's a LONG list.
It's just one thing.
Why do [dogs] have [eyes], then?
Again it's because genes that coded for eyes spread through the population. And that could be because navigating the world is useful. But you don't need consciousness for navigating the world, self-driving cars and other robots can do it too.
Why do our eyes produce seeing, an experience [...]
They produce neither. They only produce nerve signals. The seeing and experiencing part happens wholly inside our brains.
[...] but dog eyes don't?
Same blog post.
..., thereby increasing the injured dog's genes' survival rate.
Why did pain only evolve in us?
I believe I have pointed to a blog post explaining this but you don't want to read my posts.
What are the other reasons for a dog's yelp when he is injured?
The main reason dogs yelp is that genes that coded for yelping spread through the population. One reason for this, in turn, could be that other dogs are programmed to come and help when they hear a dog yelping...
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
But insulting me repeatedly isn’t disingenuous of you?
Because the same behavior can be caused by infinitely many conflicting reasons. You seem to draw the the same line (albeit at a different spot) when you limit it to mammals btw. Hence my question…
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
I believe I do. I scrolled up and found several instances of me responding to your points.
The point is that at least one of us is wrong on the matter and we don’t know which one and a refutation of my views would show that you’re right and I’m wrong.
RT @matthewdmarsden:
Just stop with the “ seatbelt” analogy. It’s ridiculous.
Not at all, feel free to do that anywhere, anytime!
RT @ZubyMusic:
In San Francisco, you can shoot heroin in public, poo on the street, and shoplift freely.
But you can't go to the gym with…
RT @trutsle:
Wait a minute i thought women made less. https://t.co/YxdzjauG8Y
Some pointers on how to do it: courses.aynrand.org/works/how-does…
So if it’s for law enforcement it’s not violence? For example, if a parliament passes a law stating that people who are out and about for ‘non-essential’ reasons should be shot on sight, you don’t consider that violence?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Then I guess I'm a sloppy writer! Do you have an actual refutation of my views?
RT @Jediphone:
@DavidDeutschOxf
Astronomical engineering - quite a conjecture!
RT @ThomasEWoods:
This sure sounds like people with super-duper confidence in the vaccines
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
“this” = what I wrote above or Deutsch’s books?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Problem-solving seems to come with certain emergent properties, including qualia (the subjective aspects of feeling wind on your face and seeing the color yellow). These things all seem to have been achieved in a single jump in humans, as David Deutsch argues in his book.
I'm starting to think Popper's criterion isn't sufficient. A political system that uses violence against its own people is not democratic even if those people could somehow get rid of rulers without violence. Lack of violence has to go both ways. twitter.com/MichaelPSenger…
@GrandmasterOur @RichardDawkins
I understood that. Why did you assume I didn't?
@theperfectbuzz @RyanLum @AVoiceForField1
Assuming that by “this dude” you were referring to me not Descartes.
@theperfectbuzz @RyanLum @AVoiceForField1
I had a cat as an adult and three guinea pigs as a kid and when I had them I thought they were all conscious and capable of suffering.
RT @theperfectbuzz:
This might take the cake for dumbest thing ever tweeted.
@theperfectbuzz @Annascreativemo @LouiseH74531141 @RichardDawkins
I did when I first watched it. In fact, I was vegan at the time out of concern for animal suffering.
RT @GregAbbott_TX:
Any school district, public university, or local government official that decides to defy GA-38—which prohibits gov't en…
RT @ClaireFosterPHD:
I swear I just saw my neighbor sneaking unvaccinated people in his house.
In other words, virtually nobody. twitter.com/paulg/status/1…
RT @nixcraft:
whereis cat
See how to use whereis cyberciti.biz/faq/unix-linux… command on your Linux or Unix/FreeBSD/macOS system. https://t.co/…
RT @paulg:
If a critic of the EU wanted to launch an ad campaign to convince people that they were fussy and ineffective, they could not co…
“Sure you can!” Gestures Doug inside. “Coming right up!”
RT @paulg:
In many fields, people don't like to work and resent their employer for making them work harder than they want to. But with prog…
RT @MrAndyNgo:
Tense scenes in Paris as thousands gather to protest the expanded covid passport that comes into effect on Monday. The healt…
RT @ANothlich:
Über 200.000 Franzosen demonstrieren gegen Macrons Impfdiktatur und fordern seinen Rücktritt:
RT @DaPholosopher:
Correct. You've got to #disobey.
AbolishLockdowns.com @LPMisesCaucus
#endthelockdowns #reopen #reopenamerica #liber…
RT @ZubyMusic:
'Liberals' in 2021 be like:
Freedom of speech 🙅🏼
Freedom of movement 🙅🏾♀️
Freedom of assembly 🙅🏼♂️
Wearing what you want…
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
[...] nobody sane thinks [...]
Then I guess I'm insane! (Though technically I didn't say problem-solving is equivalent to consciousness – I said it's what makes one conscious.)
You're arguing from intimidation: aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/argume…
RT @justin_hart:
What do I get when I punch the 10th stamp on my vaccine booster loyalty card?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
You appear to have zero understanding of the issue or even how to debate something.
You could have thought to yourself: 'Interesting, somebody has a radically different view than me. Let's see what we can find out together.' Instead, you decided to attack me personally. Why?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Much of Popperian and Deutschian epistemology points to a special kind of problem-solving (namely creativity) being necessary (and sufficient) for consciousness to arise. (Though Popper thought animals are conscious.)
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Being able to solve a problem and being able to have an experience are not the same thing.
If being able to solve problems is what distinguishes one from robots – and IIRC you agreed that robots are not conscious – then it's what makes one conscious.
RT @elonmusk:
Moving rocket to orbital launch pad https://t.co/zZLiXIPD6M
RT @TheAtlasSociety:
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! #ShrinkGovernment #SocialismSucks
Watch This! youtu.be/ROX10g0ZQxY https://t.co/JCGBPVB3F2
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
I suppose it all comes down to this: what would you consider evidence that animals aren't conscious?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
You have genetic algorithms around sex, food, etc, but still feel it.
Yea, humans can recognize and overcome those and deal with them differently than dogs, like I wrote in my previous blog post...
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Re 'clearly': blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/evidence…
Or was it you who doesn't like to read blog posts?
There are literally no facts to support your conclusion here.
Beg to differ: the 'swimming' dog automata?
Dogs don't have human language, so what?
When did I say error correction or consciousness have to do with language?
How does the inability to resolve errors in a particular way imply zero ability to experience suffering?
Because it points at the dog blindly executing an algorithm. Blindly, like an automaton.
That same gap isn't just the difference between skyscrapers and beaver dams but also between sentient and non-sentient.
@direstdiarist @RichardDawkins
And who's to say a dog can't overcome this instinct, either of its own accord or with training?
Of its own accord would be interesting. With training, not so much.
@direstdiarist @RichardDawkins
And then there's the same bug in humans (at least me, albeit expressed differently)... There's something there.
[There's no] reason to overcome a behaviour that is only maladaptive in a completely contrived scenario.
Would you still say this if a person did the same thing?
@direstdiarist @RichardDawkins
A handful of 30 second YouTube snippets [...]
Well, it's 14 clips of dogs 'swimming'. That's not nothing. Also, I hear cats do it, too. If it's cross-species that may point at something deeper.
@direstdiarist @RichardDawkins
Yeah, could be that plus moving slowly or not at all. Or maybe bracing for impact inhibits the algorithm. Btw there's no need for quotes around 'algorithm', it's literally one, not metaphorically.
Stay tuned for lambda plus and lambda pro. twitter.com/ClimateWarrior…
"It doesn't work unless everybody pitches in!"
RT @firstofequals:
Can we end homelessness? Yes, comrade - we can do just that, with my Generous Universal Living Arrangement Grant program…
.@AOC hugging a guy, not wearing a mask, eagerly touching her face. twitter.com/SenSchumer/sta…
RT @ComicDaveSmith:
There in not one government policy under the covid regime that has helped mitigate the virus and most have caused enorm…
Delta Plus is how you get Covid without the ads.
Delta plus? What's next? Delta Deluxe? Delta Pro?
And it's not just that humans have a bigger repertoire: they have an unpredictably expanding one. That's how we account for the huge gap between our achievements and those of all other species. No other species builds spacecraft or skyscrapers. How else do you explain that?
[S]imply having a smaller repertoire says nothing about whether they have consciousness [...]
Agreed, hence my focus on error correction. Which, again, seems to be lacking entirely in 'swimming' dogs.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Cultural evolution in humans has dramatically expanded our behavioral repertoire [...]
Not just our behavior, but also our knowledge. And individuals are creative. (If they weren't, cultural evolution wouldn't be where it is today.)
@direstdiarist @RichardDawkins
Applied to the example of thrashing around in the water, a person can know not to do that and calmly lie on his back – as you yourself suggested and as a dog couldn't suggest or understand.
@direstdiarist @RichardDawkins
[...] not sure unnecessary deployment of a survival mechanism precludes consciousness.
If that were all, I would agree, since humans do this too. The crucial difference, as I explain in the post, is that humans detect and correct such errors.