Dennis Hackethal’s Blog
My blog about philosophy, coding, and anything else that interests me.
Tweets
An archive of my tweets and retweets through . They may be formatted slightly differently than on Twitter. API access has since gotten prohibitively expensive – I don't know whether or when I'll be able to update this archive.
But in case I will, you can subscribe via RSS – without a Twitter account. Rationale
They’d have more time if ppl didn’t fill their day with things they don’t want to do.
Learning rules requires knowledge which can be acquired peacefully, no coercion necessary.
To be clear I do not advocate neglect or never teaching rules. I just don’t think it requires force.
Note that emergency situations are different from things like forcing someone to eat vegetables or go to school.
No you put out the fire and explain how that seriously could have hurt the brother.
When you describe children as totalitarian that can easily be understood to imply that it is appropriate to use violence or other kinds of force against their alleged illusions of grandeur and their alleged violence.
Total subjugation of the world around often seems to be the vision, if only fleeting :)
Evidence?
How is that “breaking”?
It’s thwarting their efforts until they do what you approve of.
you say "Of course not" but then seem to argue in favor of it anyway
throwing stuff to see if and how it flies is a science experiment
much more apt to describe children as little scientists than as little totalitarians
But how would self-coercion surface in a child in the absence of gentle boundaries set up by surrounding humans ?
Why should such self-coercion surface?
children are not little totalitarians who need to be broken and civilized
RT @Sir_Mart_Ash:
@dchackethal @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Ok so you're an idiot then cool noted
your argument isn't new: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/libertar…
and for many children the outside world ends up being much kinder than the home as they grow up
strangers largely leave them alone when appropriate, which is something parents consistently fail to do
@mentalplex @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
yes
i'm going somewhere with this
take the plunge, there's nothing to worry about
@AgnusDeitox @SMooreesq @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
ive heard of people abandoning their love for freedom once they have children
pessimism is rampant
sad
i think none of the many responses ive gotten say anything new
it's all rehashed
eg 'force is necessary to produce respectful humans'
no. force teaches that might is right
@SenorMustachio @tripencrypt @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
what about video games someone gifted to you?
@Zsuzsica @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
this isn't really about the article specifically
more about people's willingness to abuse their own children generally
and other people's readiness to defend such abuse publicly
@LMACameron @basementhippo @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
and i have answered that i don't have children
i have babysat children, yes
takingchildrenseriously.com is my inspiration
amazing how openly some parents talk about abusing their kids
they think it's because it's not really abuse
but they have no problem admitting it's force twitter.com/monack/status/…
RT @TCSparents:
“Did you ever have to hug or kiss a relative even when you did not want to? […] Demanding that children hug or kiss family…
RT @ParikPatelCFA:
Nancy Pelosi to step down as leader of the house to focus full-time on insider trading
@mentalplex @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Can you just answer the question without assuming bad intentions on my part?
@AgnusDeitox @SMooreesq @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
I disagree and I don’t think you’ve given my view so much as a chance, you’re dismissing it out of hand.
@AgnusDeitox @SMooreesq @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Force isn’t help
$ heroku run ls took almost 16 seconds to get a result. I mean, come on...
@serialnewz @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
the tweet doesn't mention capitalist oppression like you claimed
@serialnewz @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i could tell it was a reference, at least to something you had heard, since you said "all over again", just not a reference to a tweet
@serialnewz @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
didn't realize it was a joke
also not sure how i could have known that you were referencing another tweet without any mention of or link to such a tweet
@serialnewz @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i'm not aware of the left or right ever claiming that bedtimes are capitalist or communist oppression
@serialnewz @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
since you've realized that, and since libertarians like capitalism, how could i possibly speak of "capitalist oppression"?
@SenorMustachio @tripencrypt @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
you'll get your answer when you consider what right you have to your videos games
@mentalplex @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
I can't imagine you actually think we come out of the womb with minute to minute desires perfectly matching our needs, and the only responsibility of parents is to reach things on tall shelves.
you're correct, i do not
but i'm not doing a bit
@mentalplex @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i'm letting you bathe when you want to
is that neglect?
@AttyErinS @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
as i have said, emergency situations are different
bathing isn't an emergency situation
@AttyErinS @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
yea persuasion can be hard
sometimes that's because one's ideas aren't that good
that doesn't justify force, and might doesn't make right
@Sir_Mart_Ash @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
roughly that the subject is not given an option to decline being bathed
@cwcooper @Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
this 'training' you speak of isn't just attainable through coercion
there is a peaceful alternative called 'persuasion'
@angryarlmom @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
yea it'd be good if you didn't force them to
Connecting to a @heroku instance via $ heroku run is awfully slow.
@FakeAjebutter @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
since this comment is really directed at me: there are different degrees of abuse.
@Sir_Mart_Ash @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
what?
subjecting someone to force is abuse (there are exceptions but bathing is not one)
@ssylvan @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
you don't need to keep saying my name, i already know you're pissed at me
you often do not want to do what you should do for 'your own good'. doesn't mean somebody else should make decisions for you
freedom comes with the freedom to make mistakes
@AttyErinS @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
lol: twitter.com/dchackethal/st…
waiting until this person realizes that children can be persuaded to take baths
@cwcooper @yesimrite @EKStewartNH @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i agree that parents have obligations toward their children
where we disagree is whether it is morally right to use force to fulfill them
@cwcooper @Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
silly to think we need to force kids to take baths to have a 'functioning society'
@cwcooper @Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
not killing or maiming people should indeed be enforceable because it's a violation of their rights (and a form of abuse, so if you're against abuse, that same reasoning should lead you to reject force against kids)
@ForLangley @EKStewartNH @JoGoTyRo @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
no. this is where you get to say 'ah, of course, that's why he believes such silly things'
@yesimrite @EKStewartNH @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
no, yes, no
ah, the old traffic argument: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/libertar…
@OverThinkStuff @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
forcing someone to make the bed, forcing someone take a bath, yes
@kahloun @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
as a counterexample, i was persuaded as a child that brushing my teeth was a good idea and necessary, and then i did so happily and routinely
same for hygiene in general
@AgnusDeitox @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
that's actually a great example of a routine yet gross violation of a child's freedoms
is forcing you to do things you don't want to do not abuse?
@AgnusDeitox @SMooreesq @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
'making them' do anything is wrong
call it something other than abuse if you want, it's still wrong
if eating something other than sugar is such a good idea you should have no problem persuading a child of that
@mentalplex @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
maybe so but i don't get why ppl immediately think 'if i don't force my kid to bathe he will never bathe' that just isn't true
RT @ZubyMusic:
What was the silliest, least scientific 'pandemic' policy?
RT @jabster42:
@StephHoover8 @ZubyMusic
Why were the police allowed to be together in a group like that?
Seems dangerous.
Der ist aber nicht Mitglied des Bundestages.
@ssylvan @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Yes Sebastian
@Sir_Mart_Ash @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Sexual abuse isn’t the only kind of abuse
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Do you know any toddlers?
yes
They are reflexively contrarian.
😱😱 You're right, let's fix those little shits!
@pelipperkoi @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
no (and fair warning i haven't looked into them much and only have a vague idea of what they want)
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
I have a very clear conscience about things like baths and toddlers.
you said "everything is against a toddler’s will." meaning you think all you ever did was coerce your kids. yet you have a clear conscience.
@EKStewartNH @JoGoTyRo @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
no. washing a toddler when he has agreed to be washed isn't against his will. playing games with a toddler when he has agreed to play isn't against his will. comforting a toddler when he wants to be comforted isn't against his will. and so on
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i think you know the answer is 'yes it is abuse'
and you're afraid of the consequences
that's why you 'bow out'
when in reality there is nothing to worry about
@EKStewartNH @JoGoTyRo @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
if washing is so important youll have no trouble persuading your child
@EKStewartNH @JoGoTyRo @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
it's not just about washing someone
it's about washing them against their will
@EKStewartNH @JoGoTyRo @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
washing someone against their will, or doing anything against their will, can cause great harm
for one it harms the bond between parent and child
it harms the child's autonomy
it harms the child's rights
the list goes on
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
let me rephrase for clarity:
given that someone forces you to take a bath, is that not abuse, yes or no?
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i don't know what adl means (activities of daily living?) but i don't think you've answered my question
@JoGoTyRo @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
ok google says "cruel and violent treatment of a person [...]" and "
use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm" that sounds right
@EKStewartNH @Acelamerican @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
as i've said emergency situations are different
@EKStewartNH @Acelamerican @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
You have outstanding/unanswered questions:
twitter.com/dchackethal/st…
twitter.com/dchackethal/st…
Why answer yours if you don't answer mine?
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i told you i wasn't gonna be able to convince you
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
they wouldn't let you walk away
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i say this irrespective of my childhood
@yesimrite @EKStewartNH @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
if somebody physically pushed you into a bathtub right now and submerged you, you wouldn't consider that abuse?? or some form of violation of your rights as a human being?
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
yea it's usually child educators who are the worst child abusers
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
somebody comes along who still thinks you can't make rational decisions in your own best interest in your current situation where neither need nor want any guardian
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i don't think you know enough about epistemology to make that claim
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
ok
somebody comes along who still thinks you can't make rational decisions in your own best interest
so now he forces you to do the things he'd want
not great is it?
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
"Teaching kids that they can’t be selfish little cunts"
you're disgusting
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
yea that sounds really gross
how would you feel if somebody 'made you do' anything
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
that I agree with (although i'd guess it's the adult who shouldn't be permitted to act on it?). in any case, you can agree with that and still see that child abuse (sexual and non-sexual) is rampant in society
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
Children clinically before the age of around 8 do not have the mental capacity to execute higher reasoning.
That can't possibly be true because learning language is an impressive intellectual feat.
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
"it is bad for society to permit that"
children do not owe anyone a functioning society
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
What activities constitute abuse?
Do you mean the same freedoms as adults?
I'm still hashing this out myself but I think so, yea. There may be some exceptions but overall yes.
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
that still isn't very encouraging but ok here goes
my view is not that children are like adults
but that each child is his own person and has a right to freedom
and that child abuse is disgusting and wrong
i'm influenced by takingchildrenseriously.com
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
if you'd still consider it insane it wouldn't change your mind
@Acelamerican @EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
that's not quite my point but if you already characterize my view as insane, what i could possibly say that would change your mind?
so, to be clear, your view is that it's not abuse if the perpetator considers it necessary, yes/no?
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
please answer whether someone forcing you to take a bath would be abuse
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
in emergency situations i agree but taking baths isn't such a situation
@EKStewartNH @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i don't think 15 yo's are typically bathed by their parents??
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
btw this wasn't a rhetorical question
@EKStewartNH @fakeaarontweets @JoeReynolds2020 @FreeRangeKids
i don't think so bit it could be neglect
but there's a peaceful alternative to force: persuasion