Dennis Hackethal’s Blog
My blog about philosophy, coding, and anything else that interests me.
Tweets
An archive of my tweets and retweets through . They may be formatted slightly differently than on Twitter. API access has since gotten prohibitively expensive – I don't know whether or when I'll be able to update this archive.
But in case I will, you can subscribe via RSS – without a Twitter account. Rationale
"[Winking] suggests a very well developed sense of consciousness for self and others in dogs."
LOL no it doesn't. I'll program a robot to wink at other robots, does that make it conscious? twitter.com/FluffyKittyA/s…
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
What about the things they ARE aware of?
It's at best unclear that they are.
Let's take an example somewhat related to what you've written: self-recognition in the mirror. Many are impressed when animals do that and consider it evidence they're conscious. Do you?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Robots could be programmed to write and send your tweets. Your point?
My point is that robots aren't conscious. Do you agree?
You’re arguing from intimidation which is invalid: theobjectivestandard.com/2019/06/the-ar…
Federal government is making it harder to work for and with the government. Good. Maybe people will quit and the parasite will shrink a bit, if only temporarily. twitter.com/disclosetv/sta…
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
What about my dog’s uncanny ability to find the one beam of sunlight in a room […]
“Uncanny”? You don’t think robots could be programmed to do the same thing?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
What does that mistake have to do with whether or not they are conscious and can feel?
It’s not that the dog makes a mistake – we all do – it’s how it deals with it and how it’s unaware of it.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
So humans can detect and correct errors and how they do this seems very different from animals (when animals do it at all). And somewhere in that difference lies the difference between sentient and non-sentient, I think.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
The reason I say they have no idea what they're doing is that they try to 'swim' when held above water, and even when they're held above an AC unit. They don't realize their mistake. I then give an example of something similar happening to me but realizing the mistake.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
So... sources should only be read when both parties suggest some?
Well okay, if you don't want to read it, in short it's that dogs have no idea what they're doing and if they were conscious they would notice grotesque errors in their behavior.
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Now give me some evidence that other animals are not conscious.
See my blog post?
Why should we assume that beings that can remember [...] and learn probably have no internal states?
Why should we assume that they do? This goes both ways.
@oldvillagesage @RichardDawkins
I understand some of my reactions a posteriori as composed of small reactions that seem very algorithmic to internal and external stimuli.
Can you give a specific example of a reaction and the external and internal stimuli that accompany it?
@oldvillagesage @RichardDawkins
I agree that people are sometimes predictable (eg many will find it strange if you shake their left hand) but on the whole they are deeply unpredictable in principle because they are knowledge-creating entities.
RT @ClimateWarrior7:
One of the most effective ways to reduce the covid death toll would have been for the white community to hand over a l…
Hesse hier und mir sagt keiner dieser Begriffe was. 😀
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
I'm not suggesting that and I agree that sophistication of behaviors is no indication of absence (or presence, for that matter) of awareness.
Answer my q pls?
RT @michaelmalice:
When you hear political leaders refer to entire groups of humans as "non-essential," you are hearing the groundwork bein…
RT @iamdevloper:
[lying awake at night, contemplating human existence]
🛸 🌎 ° 🌓 • .°• 🚀 ✯
★ * ° 🛰 °· …
In turn, I'd guess the vast majority of those who think animals cannot suffer don't go around torturing animals ("affliction of cruelty").
Thinking animals can't suffer is decidedly a minority view, so the vast, vast majority of animal 'abuse' is committed by people who do think animals can suffer and either enjoy making them suffer or don't care enough not to eat them.
Only halfway through but I have a thought on "Inevitably, the conviction that animals do not feel pain leads to [...] the affliction of cruelty and suffering [...]."
Beg to differ 👇
I haven't had a pet dog myself (though I've had other pets) but I've spent a fair bit of time around dogs. And yea they would wink at me sometimes.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
What's the best argument in favor of the existence of abstractions that you know?
@AstralKing7 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Dogs do plenty of things that suggest consciousness that they were not "bred" to do.
OK, for example?
The hardware (nervous system etc) is similar indeed but I think the software is very different. And the ability to suffer seems to result from that difference.
RT @Captain_Concept:
@dchackethal @FluffyKittyA @RichardDawkins
Human narcissism truly knows no bounds
Can you point to something specific in my claims that's either illogical or unscientific?
This isn't meant as some sort of challenge to you, I'm genuinely curious if there are mistakes in my thinking.
RT @ThomasEWoods:
More rain dances should bring rain at last
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
What’s the best refutation you know?
RT @liberty_deity:
Fifteen days to slow the spread?
Where have we heard that before?
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
Evidence can’t support theories anyway (Popper). We are free to make bold conjectures, and the bolder they are the easier it should be to refute them.
@Annascreativemo @LouiseH74531141 @RichardDawkins
Warning, graphic violence
Good luck pushing your ideology
That's an unfair assessment of what I'm doing. I'm just interested in discussing and seeing where I'm wrong.
Again a reductionist take.
What's reductionist about it? Computers instantiate abstractions on higher levels of emergence.
Brains and artificial computers differ fundamentally.
Why? I agree there are some differences but I've explained why brains are computers.
RT @amatueradult:
@dchackethal @RichardDawkins
I like that your name has "hack" in it
Brains were designed by biological evolution. And it’s not an analogy: anything that processes information is a computer.
Yeah, good intentions standing in the way of error correction.
Yes, and also the level of hostility with which they'll greet anyone who dares question that animals are conscious.
Hopefully one day we'll be effectively immortal and so everyone, no matter how old, will always be near the beginning of his life.
Not a "sentience gene", no. And I'm no reductionist. But I agree that sentience is an emergent property (though not of brains (hardware) but of certain software).
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
That said, 'citation needed' has its place and all, but when somebody comes up with a genuinely new idea, there can't be any citations for it, and that doesn't make the idea any worse.
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
David Deutsch's The Beginning of Infinity chapter 5 amazon.com/Beginning-Infi…
Not about bits specifically but explains the reasoning behind the reality of abstractions and emergence.
Even if you disagree the whole thing is still a fantastic read so I recommend it either way!
@ADocetist @lucid_crow @alistair_ware
Humans make errors too but they can correct them much more easily and through different and better means than dogs.
RT @JeriousK:
@dchackethal @RichardDawkins
Nobody click on that. No telling what viral malware is there. Given that the previous sentence a…
RT @BissetteHunter:
Being skeptical toward the existence of gratuitous animal suffering is even more bold than being skeptical toward the e…
Read the blog post I linked and maybe you'll find a reason? (depending on what you mean by "systems")
Humans are much more than language robots.
@AVoiceForField1 @RichardDawkins
Yes, I've commented on it here: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/analyzin…
@pipcem @BallWw123f @RichardDawkins
I agree that brains (hardware) are very similar. But our minds (software) are very different from other animals'.
@pipcem @BallWw123f @RichardDawkins
I've spent time with dogs and other animals. I used to be vegan out of concern for animals so I get it. But eventually I changed my mind because I was exposed to new ideas and developed some of my own that I think work better.
@Annascreativemo @LouiseH74531141 @RichardDawkins
I watched 'Earthlings' a few years back. Does that count?
RT @diemauerthewall:
West Berlin in 1961. Thousands of citizens flocked to the Brandenburg Gate to see the division of their city first han…
“[…] if you do go out of your house, I will tell the police to return you to your home.” — The President of the Philippines twitter.com/toadmeister/st…
California trying to make error correction harder. Not surprising. Take note. twitter.com/KevinKileyCA/s…
Highly doubt this is true as I keep hearing deaths with COVID are counted as deaths from COVID. If that’s true, this ‘statistic’ just fuels fear and isn’t helping. twitter.com/AlecStapp/stat…
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
magnetically arranged atoms are not bits or bytes they're just atoms
Bits aren't just useful. That's instrumentalist. They really do exist objectively, but as more than atoms.
And I think atoms themselves are also emergent phenomena, btw.
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
I think many people would describe themselves as more than just atoms configured in interesting ways... and they'd be right. A car is also just atoms configured interestingly. There must be more.
In any case, what the dog does in your video doesn't show it knows about water or its dangers. Genes that happened to code for collaborative behavior like that may simply have spread through the gene pool because fewer of their organisms drowned. No understanding required.
Cool, I didn't know it was false. I take it they did experiments to refute the idea?
I don't think I said dogs don't understand what water is. Do you have a quote?
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
bits and bytes aren't matter btw
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
So people are also just atoms bumping into each other?
"[...] the much derided idea that frogs don't jump out of boiling water." It may be derided but is it false?
I've seen it now. And?
I have, and I think we should be careful to label those things 'fun' for them. It's anthropomorphizing and then concluding they're conscious like us, which is circular.
What looks like fun to us may be them trying things out, updating parameters, 'learning' in ways we don't.
Here's an example of the kind of intimidation some 'compassionate' people employ against dissenters: twitter.com/Soph8B/status/…
The part that goes "there is sth VERY wrong with your ability to read faces". Also makes the same mistake, thinking that what's true is plain to see.
The analogy serves to point out that what's true is very hard to see and that appearances can be deceptive.
"heartless" is an implicit threat serving as argument from intimidation (very common in the animal-rights community): aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/argume…
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Ah, well, I bow to your superior academic pedigree. Surely academics are never wrong!
Yes. Switch may have been a rare genetic mutation that occurred in one of our ancestors having to do with self-replicating programs: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/the-neo-…
In the blog post, I explain how humans are a lot less algorithmic than animals and respond differently to bugs.
RT @jordan_rw:
@BallWw123f @dchackethal @RichardDawkins
Dennis definitely used to burn bugs with a magnifying glass as a kid
@LouiseH74531141 @RichardDawkins
I don't know much about animal testing, but I'd guess for one because physical responses can be very similar, and for two things that look painful in animals often are painful in humans.
But maybe animal testing is deeply flawed (beyond moral concerns), I don't know.
@LouiseH74531141 @RichardDawkins
I don't think there is or ever was a god or that man was made in his image, nor am I trying to justify animal 'abuse'. I'm trying to understand if animals are conscious, wherever that may take me, that's all.
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
Well, I guess I should have written "almost all programmers". ;)
Joking aside, programmers know it's the program that instructs its computer, not the other way round, no matter how loudly they may try to deny that.
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
There'd be no reduction there. (And we do know that cognition is computation.)
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Another problem with the view that a person is like a computer [...]
I never claimed that. Read my tweets again.
Like how people "clearly" saw the sun revolving around the earth and had no doubt that was the case?
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Non-dualism isn't reductionism, no.
Why not?
How does a immaterial thing move a material thing?
Programs are instantiated in material substrates. That's how they move other material substrates. Again, all computation requires physical substrates.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
And same issue I stumbled upon in this thread:
You don't know that they're not my "epistemic peers". Maybe I have fancy biology degrees. You don't know that. (But again, it doesn't matter.)
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Argument from authority, invalid. Truth is truth whether they're my peers or not.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Thinking that it can't is reductionism which is false. Paraphrasing Deutsch, it's the program that instructs its computer, not the other way round. Programmers understand this deeply and don't find it mysterious at all. And they're right not to.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
And I do not discard it with the same goal in mind. So that still doesn't really tell us anything.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Souls are supernatural, programs are not. And dualism is true. (Well, pluralism, but w/e.)
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
See twitter.com/dchackethal/st…
I suggest continuing the discussion there in a single thread so this doesn't branch off.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
That quote literally says "There's no dispute [...]".
But again, it doesn't matter. We shouldn't care about what people think or if they agree or not or whether they're scientists or not, but about what's true.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
People have bodies that can be felt, yes. Deutsch explains why computation always requires a physical substrate, so again there's not conflict here.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
And btw, I think Dawkins replicator-centric view of evolution has been mainstream science ever since he wrote The Selfish Gene at the latest, possibly since much earlier than that. Not that it matters for figuring out what's true.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Shouldn't judge ideas by source or consensus (ie what's "mainstream"), see this thread:
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
He's a philosopher, too (not that it matters...). Deutsch argues very convincingly that people are abstractions. So if he's right there's no conflict there.
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
Sorry I keep throwing blog posts at you but I think that post explains it well with more details than Twitter will allow me to type.
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
Why would consciousness be a binary attribute [...]?
I think it has to do with a rare genetic mutation humans inherited from their ancestors and other animals didn't:
@Der_Prometheus @grain99806254 @RichardDawkins
First off, humans are animals.
Agreed.
Second, how do you know non-human animals are missing the program that would make them conscious?
If animals were conscious, I think they'd be less algorithmic. Modus tollens.
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
Care to elaborate?
@grain99806254 @Der_Prometheus @RichardDawkins
All humans share a program that makes them conscious. (This is David Deutsch's idea about people really being programs not bodies, roughly summarized.) That's the program animals are missing. So no solipsism. I'm heavily influenced by DD on animal consciousness too btw.
@BallWw123f @Pyrrho19 @RichardDawkins
People had the 'scientific method' (not really a 'method' per se but that's a different story) when they all agreed that time passes equally fast for all observers. Einstein showed them they were wrong. (And his explanation was good regardless of his credentials.)