Dennis Hackethal’s Blog

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

We can keep arguing specifics but I think the main difference between us is that you're not as disgusted by violence and coercion as you should be. You wish to accommodate them, at least to some degree, because 'institutions'.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I JUST said institutions are financed with blood money so they can't possibly solve problems without violence.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Solving interpersonally, meaning actual positive-sum transactions, is what happens in markets – in politics there's always some loser somewhere.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Not to mention that ~all of these grand institutions, including courts, are financed using blood money.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Psychologically I agree – I thought of just that point yesterday and failed to mention it – but there's still a conflict between taxation and man's natural rights, be he aware of his rights or not.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Sometimes, but poorly, and rarely. Most of the time they steamroll, and it takes years to correct an error (courts are sloooow), with much more steamrolling happening in the meantime (see covid policies, for example).

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Well, only if I'm right. But GIVEN that I'm wrong it should, again, be easy to meet Logan's and my challenge.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

TCS definition of coercion: web.archive.org/web/2019032822…

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

So it's not quite as simple as the 'inversion' of consent, since the absence of consent does not necessarily imply coercion. For example, if nobody has asked you about X but you also don't mind X at all, you haven't consented but you also aren't being coerced.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

My conception of coercion is the TCS one: the enacting of one idea while there's still a conflicting one present in one's mind.

Or, across minds, one idea steamrolling over others without solving the conflict interpersonally first.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

That's been the case so far, but if the statists are right and there really is a convincing one, it should be easy to find, and it would automatically come with an explanation for why lack of knowledge isn't the only factor.

Gut reflektierte Kommentare zu meinen Artikeln, so wie dieser, gefallen mir immer besonders gut: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/wer-soll…

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

What do you mean by “medal”?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I think you’d be surprised how many such examples people give routinely (roads, healthcare, etc).

In any case, just because you haven’t been able to change my mind doesn’t mean I won’t.

@mgoldingmd @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

One person’s thief is another’s freedom fighter.

How does that work?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Chipkin and I already wrote about how to change our minds a while back: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/libertar…

If you're not trying to make theft work, what are you doing?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I take it "garning" = 'gaining'
I don't know what you mean by "medal".

Are you referring to this tweet of yours? twitter.com/jchalupa_/stat…

@astateofEmily

A German’s pro-gun-control opinion, given their past.

@AxelBuchmuller

Also Eigentum wegnehmen, um Eigentum zu schützen? Das passt doch irgendwie nicht zusammen.

RT @aginnt:
Seriously these people are addicted to hysteria. pic.twitter.com/ByiuAhXjCq

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

still sounds like you're working hard to make theft work

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

you should state in simple, plain english, what you think my conception of coercion is, so that we can correct it

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

yes, well, again, you're arguing against something i'm not arguing for, because i think the child has a right not to be beaten no matter what the political institutions in its country say.

nor would i ever suggest that protecting children is coercion against parents.

@DorfGinger @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

And you laying into me in the Telegram chat and calling me a 'dweeb' was also unrelated?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I don't know why you're working so hard to make theft work. You don't stand to gain anything from that.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

But let's assume the government is this all-knowing, all-wise, Santa Claus organization, and whatever it touches works out beautifully. Well that still doesn't make theft okay.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

What's less well known is that in many of these areas, there used to be free-market services that had already developed the knowledge, but then government crowds them out and eventually monopolizes the sector. Afterwards people can't imagine it being any other way.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

You claim the government does well in the areas you mention. But it's also well known it usually fucks up everything it touches, and that its 'services' could be better provided by the market.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Your tweets once more claim contradictions where there are none. The concept of benevolent authoritarians is well known. I never claimed that our politicians enjoy coercing their subjects.

@DorfGinger @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Wait, are you still mad at me for calling out your misquote of me weeks (months?!) ago?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

"have their kids go to a school"

the "have" sounds like the parent making that decision, whether the child likes it or not, so yea that'd be coercive, too

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

But yes for large parts of our lives we do "live in hellish nightmares of societies drowned in tyrannical coercion". Def for the first ~18 years. For some, much longer.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I have already said that delegation to a lawyer is legitimate. So you should have already realized that you don't know what I understand coercion to be.

People def can consent to surgery and power of attorney. With kids it depends on whether they want to go to school or not.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Why don't people bother with that?

Because they're brainwashed into loving authoritarianism and neglecting their own preferences from a young age: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/the-true…

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I take property and other rights seriously and make no exceptions.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Well, you did speak of “[p]eople who aren't concerned with this issue and take it for granted as legitimate […].”

And no I’m not exaggerating. I’m just not willing to make any accommodations for the crimes committed by politicians on a daily basis.

@bnielson01 @BTC_SNEK @jchalupa_ @DoqxaScott

Your definition of 'coercion' is easy-to-vary and arbitrary.

I use the TCS definition. Why is it easy to vary and arbitrary?

You don't acknowledge your own coercion.

Which is?

That's why you get it wrong so often.

When? Quotes?

@bnielson01 @BTC_SNEK @jchalupa_ @DoqxaScott

1) Leaving one’s country is not easily feasible for most.
2) The government rules territory despite not owning said territory, which differs greatly from other geographical contracts.
3) If you do want to leave you need to get a passport, which you can only get from the govt.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

So something isn't an imposition unless many people consider it one?

Why should the immorality of evil depend on people recognizing it as such?

@BTC_SNEK @jchalupa_ @DoqxaScott

Yeah. Jose seems to think traditions can't be impositions! And that just because there are some people who don't mind paying taxes, nobody should mind. Complete non sequiturs, both of them.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Now, before you say ‘but by voting you consent to their representing you’, let me preemptively address that and point you to the link @BTC_SNEK had shared, in which Spooner explains why that can’t be the case: praxeology.net/LS-NT-6.htm

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Delegation is a legit concept, which is why our ‘representatives’ like to invoke it to justify their crimes. I’ve never asked to be represented by any politician — that representation is instead hoisted on me by force.

@WorriedDenizen @bnielson01 @DoqxaScott

No, you’re worse than Scott, because as far as I know he doesn’t tyrannize kids for work, let alone expect others to feel sorry for him because he allegedly hasn’t been able to find another job. 🎻

RT @WomenPostingLs:
pic.twitter.com/MHrMdxQj0T

.@Karl_Lauterbach ist ein Tyrann.

„In den frühen Phasen einer Epidemie muss hart und früh reagiert werden.“

Weil das ja auch bei Corona so gut geklappt hat, ne? twitter.com/marcfriedrich7…

@PR0GRAMMERHUM0R

‘Need 20+ years’ experience and PhD in computer science.’

What are you doing for freedom today? twitter.com/CommunistTerro…

@BTC_SNEK @bnielson01 @jchalupa_ @DoqxaScott

One of the great things about the West is that people can openly exchange and even endorse such texts without fear of retribution from the political establishment.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Can you steelman the argument that taxes are theft?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Speak for yourself. It's what I mean.

I'm curious then, do you enjoy bending over for your government daddy? If not, maybe you're wrong about that; maybe that's not what we mean by rape.

@BTC_SNEK @bnielson01 @jchalupa_ @DoqxaScott

If [those alive during the founding of America] had intended to bind their posterity to live under [the constitution], they should have said that their objective was, not “to secure to them the blessings of liberty,” but to make slaves of them [...].

🔥

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Like, what impact does that have on the immorality of theft?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

What do I care if others would agree?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Maybe. I could see some people preferring getting ass raped once a year over having half their income stolen. I wouldn't, but some people might.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Coercion is a real political problem. And we can entertain counterfactuals to help us see factuals more clearly.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Not living in that world, you easily see that it would be abhorrent. That's what taxes look like to me in our world.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

It's a counterfactual, yes. But you could imagine a world in which politicians advocate rape, for whatever concocted reasons, and with the same 'democratic' justifications.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

It was a hypothetical.

@BTC_SNEK @bnielson01 @jchalupa_ @DoqxaScott

I've had these conversations with Bruce before. My impression at the time was that he doesn't understand what coercion is. See the comments here: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/governme…

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Why? Because taxes are used to finance the government and the 'democratically determined' budget whereas rape could not be used for such a thing?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Again, it's possible and desirable to live in a world without violence. There's no defending the violence committed by pointing to its congressional/parliamentary approval.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Sadly, these upsides are heavily outweighed by the massive scale of the crimes committed against citizens every day.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

This gang of robbers is slightly better than other criminals in that it is somewhat receptive to criticism and will offer a somewhat independent court (though also financed by blood money) to hear your grievances.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

If people join the government they become part of the biggest gang of robbers. They'll get paid in blood money. If you take that notion seriously, you won't ever want to become part of the government. It's why I could never be a politician.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

It's not just a prejudice. You just don't seem to want to take my arguments seriously; think them all the way through; give them a chance.

@bnielson01 @DoqxaScott

I'll tell you right now that I may be mistaken. Not feeling like talking to someone specific doesn't make me dogmatic. There'll be other, better people who will point out my mistakes anyway.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

'But every election all parties agree some amount of raping is necessary and good, and people vote for those parties to be in power. Not wanting to get raped is just a philosophy, I don't think it accurately depicts people' relationship with their government.'

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Just replace 'tax' with 'rape' or something else that's less controversially bad and you should see my point. It's amazing how much people will bend over backward to justify violence in the name of 'liberal democracy'.

@JimiSommer

You don't seem to understand what libertarianism is about.

@bnielson01 @DoqxaScott

Nah, I don’t particularly enjoy discussing with Scott. If that makes me someone who doesn’t believe in criticism, so be it.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Because the UK government extorts money from its subjects at the threat of insurmountable violence.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

you view our political institutions as fundamentally getting their way by force

Don’t they?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

and free people organize in governments

There are no free people, not in the US or anywhere else in the West, let alone the rest of the world afaik. Except maybe those who earn more in taxes than is stolen from them.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I don't see why the knowledge of our institutions couldn't live on in a free society, in which people are of course free to organize btw.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

oh, to be clear, i'm not saying that's what libertarianism is. i'm saying libertarianism is the expression of these ideas in politics, when taken seriously.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

What do you think libertarianism is?

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

That life in society truly is possible without violence; that all evils are due to a lack of knowledge; that error detection and correction work best in a free market.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

that doesn't strike me as an initiation of force. it's the terrorist cell that initiates force by planning something. planning is enough – they don't actually need to be successful in their execution.

RT @theimoas:
@lenadoppel

Hier ist der Optimismus im Sinne von @DavidDeutschOxf gemeint. Wir haben einen Lauf und sollten dran bleiben. htt…

@bnielson01 @DoqxaScott

I don't know. Most responses of Scott's to my tweets seem either badly garbled or off topic.

@jchalupa_ @BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Well, yeah, when you put it like that. But that's not what I have in mind.

@BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Yea. Basically, I see political institutions' only legitimate long-term goal in gradually reducing their own size to 0, never to return.

Sadly, they're all intent on growing and growing and growing...

@BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

I agree with that last part.

But given that we can't change the political system overnight, what is one to do except reduce force piecemeal, as horrible as it is to endure it one more day?

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Und damit jetzt aber wirklich: Tschö, Herr Gewaltfan

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

How could one change your mind about coercion being a necessary part of society?

2/2

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Da steht:

How could one change your mind?
If you can present a single instance of a problem that can only be solved using the initiation of coercion rather than the creation of knowledge, we will consider libertarianism refuted.

1/2

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Dass meine Seite "unserioes" sei, war der fuenfte Vorwurf. Sie haben wirklich ein Talent dafuer.

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Dann sollten Sie kurz innehalten und sich nicht weiter zum Narren machen, wenn Ihre Ansicht bereits widerlegt wurde.

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Kurz abschliessend noch, hast du den Dreizeiler, den ich verlinkt hatte, ueberhaupt gelesen?

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Das war dann auch der vierte Vorwurf. Und damit ist die Diskussion zu Ende.

Viel Spass dabei, andere zu deinen Zwecken der Staatsgewalt zu unterwerfen :)

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Ich hatte doch gerade geschrieben (und sogar nachgewiesen), dass ich der Ideologie nicht einfach nachlaufe...

@BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Do you have a quote of Popper advocating force?

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Ah, das ist natuerlich super, da lag ich wohl falsch. Allerdings erzwingen das viele Staaten soweit ich weiss weiterhin, es wird also nur bedingt auf Bundesebene geregelt.

Sie scheinen allerdings grosser Fan von Zwang zu sein.

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Es gibt keine Gewaltfreiheit unter Menschen.

Deshalb sagte ich ja, dass Sie sich dem Pessimismus verschreiben.

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

(Die ganze Seite waere fuer Sie die Lektuere wert.)

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Natuerlich koennte man mich ueberzeugen. Ich behalte mir immer vor, meine Meinung zu aendern und Fehler zu machen und dann auch zu korrigieren.

So hatte ich bereits vor anderthalb Jahren konkret dargelegt, wie man meine Meinung aendern koennte: blog.dennishackethal.com/posts/libertar…

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Sie ist nicht optional, in einigen Staaten drohen sogar happige Strafen, wenn man sich nicht 'einschreibt'.

Und wenn es 31 Millionen sind (ich glaube Ihnen die Zahl jetzt einfach mal), fehlt sie ja offensichtlich nicht gaenzlich.

@BTC_SNEK @DoqxaScott

Karl Popper mistakenly advocated piecemeal social engineering, because he failed to grasp that force can only ever destroy.

I don't see how the "because" follows there. Can you elaborate?

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

[B]ei den Libertären werden alle sozial schwachen bestraft.

Nein, nochmal: Es ist moeglich, im Kollektiv ohne Gewalt zu leben. Dass schliesst Hilfe fuer Arme mit ein. Man braucht dafuer keinen Staat. Ich will nicht, dass Arme einfach verrecken.

@schmonzed @uschpol @ben_brechtken @MarcoBuschmann @michaelmalice

Naja, Du folgst aber blind [...].

Und wieder ein Vorwurf. Und sogar einer, den ich bereits im Voraus mit meinem Link widerlegt hatte.

Wenn du mir noch einmal einen Vorwurf machst, moechte ich die Diskussion dann beenden.